Editorial

Michiel=MvdV>, Carol Shenkenberger=CS>, Editor=WDB>

Discussion on echopol in progress, one thing leads to another:

CS> Understood. If Warren were trying to make a cut on Z2, he would need to apply EP1 in areas where it was applicable right?

MvdV> My link to the MODERATOR area is operational. I'd better answer you there in order not to antagonize Warren any more than I already did. I see you are in the seen-by's.

WDB> Not to worry Michiel, this echo is for the discussion of anything to do with the betterment of Fido through exchanges here in Fidonews.

CS> I think we all know Z2 doesn't participate here that much. It is my personal opinion this however has little to do with EP1 and more to do with language barriers.

MvdV> Language does have an effect and EP1 is only a minor point. The biggest problem is that the Z2 sysops don't very much like the attitude that prevails in many Z1 echoes'...

WDB> Attitude is a many colored, many flavored concept usually in the mind of the person pontificating the faults of others, that in turn is the key that responses are flavored and colored with. If one is careful with his/her words of negativity, the results can be positive. If on the other hand a resentment is partially concealed in most replies, it becomes obviously antagonistic.

CS> What I perceive is an attempt to provide some articles in other languages than english.

MvdV> That's not going to work. Not to get more contributions from Z2 anyway. We've long figured out that multilingual publications don't work. There are just too many languages. All attempts for pan European multilingual television have failed. Multilingual magazines never were a success. All companies trying have gone bankrupt.

WDB> That is a broad brush statement, and is not true here in North America as we have many UHF stations that are of other languages and caption selection lets us know what is going on on the screen. Some Zenes have articled in dual languages, particularly the Spanish ones.

MvdV> Believe me, FidoNews is NOT going to attract any Dutch readers by publishing an occasional article in Dutch with an English translation. Those who can read English are already there and those not able to read the lingua franca - English - are not going to subscribe to a magazine of which they can at best read an occasional article.

WDB> True of paid subscriptions I suppose, but we are talking here about FidoNews a hobby newsletter where there is an interest in all fido persons of whatever nationality. It is no biggie to scroll down an article you can't read to the portion you can read. Sure, the Snooze will be a little longer in pages but the service is there.

MvdV> The only way to attract Dutch readers that can not read English is to translate /everything/ in Dutch.

WDB> Well we will see if that bucket holds water when and if Dutch articles come in as submissions in both Dutch and English. If none are forthcoming it is their loss.

MdvV> Then again there are plenty of people in Europe that can read neither Dutch nor English. For those one would have to provide translations in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Danish, Swedish, Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian, Polish, Gealic, Russian, Norwegian, Finnish, Lap, Karelian, Estonian Lithuanian, Oekranian, Tzjec, Slovanian, Hungarian, Slowakian, Kroatian, Serbian, Albanian, Bask, Catalan, Retro Romanian, Welsh and maybe a dozen others that I forgot. And that's only Europe.

CS> I can't force Z2 sysops to write although I grant I have tried to, to the point where it was 'unseemly for one not the editor' to do so.

WDB> That is true, I have tried in previous articles to enlist the help of bi-lingual Fidonetters as I know you have. If they wont respond then they are not worthy to be included in the Snooze.

MdvV> The best way to get Z2 sysops to write is to move the chair of the editor to Z2....

WDB> If they choose not to read or write in the Fidonews, again, it is their loss. If, as you state, their mind set is to exclude anything not Dutch, German, French or Spanish, it is truly their loss.

CS> Can you do something to assist?

MdvV> I am afraid I can't do much more than I have already done. I have tried to make it clear why Z2 sysops are not eager to participate. My impression is that it falls on deaf ears. I am responded to, but I am not /listened/ to.

WDB> In so many words you are saying to give the Fidonews editorship to Z2 and then your sysops will participate?

WDB> How does that solve the language differences with the editorship there rather then here where Fidonews was invented, registered and copyrighted?

WDB> You are listened to and answered, you apparently don't like the answer, so you say your sysops wont participate. Again their loss.

CS> Many things are in P4 right now, due to Z2 conditions.

MdvV> Eh????? Sorry Carol, but that is completely wrong. P4 was written by Z1 sysops and Z1 sysops alone in a time when Z2 had just come off the ground. The main problem we had (mind the past tense) at the time it was rammed through our throat was that it was entirely written for the Z1 situation and took no heed at all to the situation in Z2.

WDB> Excuse me???? The entire ZC's input from all Zones devised and developed and APPROVED the Policy 4. It is ludicrous to state Z1 "rammed" it down Z2's throat. If Z2 is so unhappy with it, and holds `vastly more votes', WHY doesn't Z2 amend it and propose ratification of all Zones?

CS> They do not and never did make sense to Z1 sysops.

MdvV> That can't be. P4 was /entirely/ written by Z1 sysops.

CS> One example is the situation with encrypted netmail. This is a legal issue (was, may still be?) in some Z2 countries.

MdvV> It still is.

CS> The P4 upheld position was that a sysop must be able to read intransit netmail for whatever reason they need to and believe me, that irks the HELL out of Z1 sysops once they figure it out.

MdvV> Yet it was them and them only that put it there. There is not a single line in P4 written by a Z2 sysop.

WDB> When Z2 or any other Zone accepts P4, it is the same as if the wrote every word. The final votes of ALL Zones become equally the author.

CS> Had Z1 'taken over' on that issue, all netmail would be unreadable to whatever level the 2 ends could manage while still getting through the various intermediate 'hops' to get from 'sender to receiver'.

MvdV> I have no idea what you are driving at. Do you object to the use of encryption or do you want to encourage it? I have lost you.

CS> No one between would be able to read it per P4. In short, body of message encrypted. But can we do that? No. It poses major legal problems still in some zones other than Z1 (I think it's legal in all Z3 and Z1 but not sure of the others).

MvdV> That doesn't seem to bother those using e-mail via the InterNet...

CS> Z2 is now larger than the rest of us combined.

MvdV> Moreover, some regions in Z2 are larger than the whole of Z1..

CS> Be careful to act wisely with today's standards and listen to all, not just your own zone or own region ok?

MvdV> Sigh... Our main problem is Z1 not listening to US. Not when they were the biggest and not when they aren't any more...

CS> It's not a `numbers of sysops' game.

MvdV> Really?

CS> Really. It's not. Z2 somehow has a block of RC numbers so large, that the other 5 zones together cant over-ride a P4 update if all Z2 RC's voted for it.

MvdV> That's how it is now. At the time of adoption of P4 Z2 was very small. Just a few regions.

CS> Back when P4 came in, we still have 10 Z1 RC's. We still do. Note it takes RC votes. It did then, and does now. We in Z1 were probably outnumbered in RC's even then though I am not sure.

MvdV> Definitely not. P4 was adapted by a Z1 majority when Henk Wevers was in the plane back home after a sysop meeting in Z1 where he was promised that would not happen....

WDB> Ummmmm, Learn something everyday, do you have anything to substantiate that claim? I'm not doubting your word, just would like to see an article to clear that, and other things mentioned above, for all Fidonews readers of all nations.

Cheers, Michiel

WDB> Thank you and Carol for a very interesting chat. We all learned something to take home with us. I have a bit of "cogitating" to do after all that has been put on the table here today.

Your Editor,
Ol'wdb